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Incest. The Western World’s Dirty Little Secret
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E-mailMade Popular Oct 13 2008
France :
There are two things I hate in this life. One is having to take a cold shower and the other is hypocrisy.
Cold showers are my problem, but hypocrisy is everyone’s, so I’ll write about hypocrisy instead.
Fact 1. Around 1.5% of western children are victims of pedophiles.
Fact 2. It is estimated that around 13-15% of western children are victims of incest.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not small-minded and I know that what we call “incest” exists in some other cultures for various socio-cultural reasons. I don’t agree with it but at least it’s not considered as being a crime. We have to live with that (even if I personally think we should try to change it).
Here in the west though, it’s illegal. I mean it’s illegal, but not as illegal as pedophilia. And that is quite simply scandalous. Did you know that here in France pedophilia is considered in law as being a “crime”, whereas incest is merely classified as an “offense”? Did you know that those convicted of incest get less time in prison (that’s when they DO go to prison, which is not always the case) than pedophiles? And it’s the same in other western countries to varying degrees.
WHY?
What is the difference between having sex with your own child and having sex with a child you don’t know? After all, both children suffer the same trauma in western culture, so it’s high time that we in the west faced up to the fact that incest and pedophelia are one and the same thing.
So why don’t we? Because this state of affairs suits too many people. The “in-between” people. The unspoken category. They are called “child molestors” or “child sex abusers” etcetera, and they are worse predators than pedophiles. This category includes teachers, priests, educators, probation officers, summer-camp monitors and friends-of-the-family to mention but a few. They all have in common that they know their victims, whereas “pedophiles” don’t, generally speaking. I’ll call them “Incestophiles” for the purposes of this article. (There are also sub-groups here; for example priests are often called pedophiles, but not teachers. But that’s another story).
Did you know that when incestophiles are caught, lo and behold, they get punished more severely than incestuous parents but less than pedophiles? They are the silent and missing link between them. For some reason I cannot understand, knowing the victim makes them less guilty. This is because there are thousands of them.
WHY?
What is the difference between having sex with your own child and having sex with a child you know and who puts his/her trust in you, a schoolgirl or choirboy etcetera? After all, both children suffer the same trauma.
Well, all this means that Western societies CAN’T judge incestuous parents as harshly as they do pedophiles, because, if they DID, the whole filthy house of cards would come crashing down, and pedophile teachers, priests, educators, family friends, not to mention pedophile politicians, judges, magistrates and lawyers would all be judged as pedophiles as well and would go to jail, and-we-can’t-have-that-now-can-we!!!? Nope, that isn’t going to happen anytime soon.
So while we’re busy keeping our dirty cowardly little secret, around 16% of western children are victims of pedophiles, and not 1.5%.
Michael C
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I must disagree, both children do not suffer the same trauma. It is not the same when a stranger molests me as a child, and when my own family member does it.
It’s just not the same Michael...and both cases are extremely different. Pedophiles and Incestophiles as you call them are different.
In third world countries for example, incest is somewhat unfamiliar, because cousins marry eachother and so forth. Neither is pedophilia because in upper egypt for example, girls marry as early as 13...
The thing is, when a young person is involved, I don’t care if it’s incest, or abuse, pedophilia or incestophilia, any sexual crime committed against a child should be handled different than that against an adult.
This kind of trauma, you just don’t get over...
It’s just not the same Michael...and both cases are extremely different. Pedophiles and Incestophiles as you call them are different.
In third world countries for example, incest is somewhat unfamiliar, because cousins marry eachother and so forth. Neither is pedophilia because in upper egypt for example, girls marry as early as 13...
The thing is, when a young person is involved, I don’t care if it’s incest, or abuse, pedophilia or incestophilia, any sexual crime committed against a child should be handled different than that against an adult.
This kind of trauma, you just don’t get over...
(Global Perspectives)
Thanks Sarah,
and if you say it’s not the same, I sincerely believe you. I also agree, and stated, that things aren’t the same in all societies. But believe me when I say I’ve often read about the emotional trauma suffered by incest victims here in the West, and it’s often very serious.
That’s why I was careful to apply my article to Western morals only. Many people think like I do here. I know no-one who would be more lenient with incestuous parents than with others, and if anyone ever said otherwise in the Western press, he’d be (figuratively) lynched!!!
Are we wrong? or right? I don’t know. But I DO know it needs to be talked about more openly......
Seeya!
and if you say it’s not the same, I sincerely believe you. I also agree, and stated, that things aren’t the same in all societies. But believe me when I say I’ve often read about the emotional trauma suffered by incest victims here in the West, and it’s often very serious.
That’s why I was careful to apply my article to Western morals only. Many people think like I do here. I know no-one who would be more lenient with incestuous parents than with others, and if anyone ever said otherwise in the Western press, he’d be (figuratively) lynched!!!
Are we wrong? or right? I don’t know. But I DO know it needs to be talked about more openly......
Seeya!
(Local Perspectives)
I agree with you Michael.
Incest and pedophilia represent what is worst in Western society, along with the aggression of women. It is an act of monstrosity that is not properly tackled.
Sometimes, I come to have impression that collusion is the greatest stimulus to these actions be done more frequently.
Incest and pedophilia represent what is worst in Western society, along with the aggression of women. It is an act of monstrosity that is not properly tackled.
Sometimes, I come to have impression that collusion is the greatest stimulus to these actions be done more frequently.
(Global Perspectives)
Absolutely right. And did you read Sarah’s comment? It’s very interesting in that it shows that there’s no universal answer to the issue. The phenomena is not considered in the same way depending on where on this planet you live.
One thing IS true though, and it’s that collusion, even though not necessarily active (sort of ”That’s just how it is”), is obscuring the problem and this status quo means that we can’t tackle this thing head-on....
One thing IS true though, and it’s that collusion, even though not necessarily active (sort of ”That’s just how it is”), is obscuring the problem and this status quo means that we can’t tackle this thing head-on....
(Local Perspectives)
I am learning.
(Global Perspectives)
Aren’t we all, my friend. Aren’t we all....or at least we all SHOULD be.
You are a humble and curious man, Ramesh.
(A bit of a teaser sometimes too, and that makes the mix even better!!)
You are a humble and curious man, Ramesh.
(A bit of a teaser sometimes too, and that makes the mix even better!!)
(Local Perspectives)
hey Michael, I think when a child is abused by a family member it (logically speaking) hurts even worse, because family members are ones that children learn to lean on and trust by instinct. I don’t know, maybe, maybe not... just my opinion...
(Global Perspectives)
Wa’d! Nice to hear from you. Now THERE’S a question!! I don’t know either, particularly because I have not been a victim. This is all terribly complicated.
The ”who suffers most” issue depends on so many factors, don’t you think (did you read Sarah’s point of view)?
You’re right though to say that those children must suffer enormously, if only because it means, in most cases, the end of the nuclear family unit concerned. That’s bad enough in itself......and the rest is even worse.
The ”who suffers most” issue depends on so many factors, don’t you think (did you read Sarah’s point of view)?
You’re right though to say that those children must suffer enormously, if only because it means, in most cases, the end of the nuclear family unit concerned. That’s bad enough in itself......and the rest is even worse.
(Local Perspectives)
I think incest gets less slap from the society because it doesn’t always involve the underaged. Two concenting adults could still practise incest.
This doesn’t make it less wrong however, and as I know that the debates surrounding this are as concerns morality, biology and religion, which means that it will always divide people along those lines.
Nice article nevertheless. Cheers.
This doesn’t make it less wrong however, and as I know that the debates surrounding this are as concerns morality, biology and religion, which means that it will always divide people along those lines.
Nice article nevertheless. Cheers.
(Global Perspectives)
Baroka, you are absolutely right. At least I think so. I personally see no harm in incest between adults, as long as it’s with consent (which, of course, could never be the case for children).
(Local Perspectives)
Well, rape is a traumatizing experience for whoever goes through it, whether an adult, a child, a girl or a boy (which should not be excluded as it DOES happen). And yes you do have a point, it is all affected by so many factors. anyways, it was nice bringing it up since obviously it happens very frequently in certain societies. it might happen as frequently in others but is just not well revealed...
(Global Perspectives)
Yep! The thing is to put all the cards on the table. We have to. For the children’s sake..............
(Local Perspectives)
Eye-opening piece Michael.
Good read.
Good read.
(Global Perspectives)
Thanks Zach, that’s very kind of you. But you know what? I would have much preferred to have had no need to write this post........but all this exists, so we have to address it, whether we want to or not.
Seeya!
Seeya!
(Local Perspectives)
And i used to tell my grandchildren that the world has brilliant people who have good ideas,but then they used to tell me i had no point,just because they were only but imaginary grandchildren.
You are very right Michael and in you i see what i used to tell my grandchildren.
You are very right Michael and in you i see what i used to tell my grandchildren.
(Global Perspectives)
Very interesting comment Duncan. Thanks.
Could you please tell us more about the ”imaginary grandchildren” you mentioned?
Could you please tell us more about the ”imaginary grandchildren” you mentioned?
(Local Perspectives)
Hey sorry for this stupid question, I don’t know what i missed in the article, but isn’t incest with children is same as pedophile?
Come on, pedophiles mean having sex with children, excuse my little vocabulary. Incest is having sex with family member not necessarily children, and if with children it will be punishable with the punishment of pedophile. Isn’t it so ?
Come on, pedophiles mean having sex with children, excuse my little vocabulary. Incest is having sex with family member not necessarily children, and if with children it will be punishable with the punishment of pedophile. Isn’t it so ?
(Global Perspectives)
My answer to your question Arjun, is a very unfortunate ”No, it isn’t”
As I said in the post, in terms of the law, pedophilia is a ”crime” here, (the most serious category with the most severe punishments) and incest with children is an ”offence” (less serious category with lesser punishment).
I’m sad to have to say that, but it’s true.......
Thanks Arjun, and have a good day!!
As I said in the post, in terms of the law, pedophilia is a ”crime” here, (the most serious category with the most severe punishments) and incest with children is an ”offence” (less serious category with lesser punishment).
I’m sad to have to say that, but it’s true.......
Thanks Arjun, and have a good day!!
(Local Perspectives)
Must agree with M.C, the imaginary grandchildren caught my attention too..I’m interested:)
(Global Perspectives)
Let’s think of it this way. Would you be more disturbed if a stranger spread filth about you or if a friend did it? A stranger would anger you and, yes, hurt you, too. But you find it almost impossible to forgive any act (whether that’s a pinch on the butt or full-blown intercourse) when you are hurt by someone you loved and trusted, someone you thought was there for your protection.
You feel more than just used and dirtied. You start wondering if you deserved it. After all, when we were kids and mommy told us we were wrong to steal cookies (even though it’s from our own kitchen) we believed her and felt ashamed and, most importantly, we thought we DESERVED to be punished. Incest makes the child feel the same way- they believe they are being ’treated that way’ because that’s how they deserve to be treated.
That said, pain is pain and no child deserves to go through such a tormenting experience. It kills their selfesteem, their ability to love themselves, to trust anyone. It can make life hell for them; old and crying to die before they’ve even become adults. I wish every country would opt for the death penalty for all pedophiles amd rapists. Or better still, a torture chamber.
You feel more than just used and dirtied. You start wondering if you deserved it. After all, when we were kids and mommy told us we were wrong to steal cookies (even though it’s from our own kitchen) we believed her and felt ashamed and, most importantly, we thought we DESERVED to be punished. Incest makes the child feel the same way- they believe they are being ’treated that way’ because that’s how they deserve to be treated.
That said, pain is pain and no child deserves to go through such a tormenting experience. It kills their selfesteem, their ability to love themselves, to trust anyone. It can make life hell for them; old and crying to die before they’ve even become adults. I wish every country would opt for the death penalty for all pedophiles amd rapists. Or better still, a torture chamber.
(Global Perspectives)
Wonderful comment this, Jayashree. Thanks. It speaks for itself and I couldn’t add anything. Cool stuff!!!
(And a typical ”Jayashree” attitude. Get-in-there-and-say-it-like-it-is. Long may you write.....)
(And a typical ”Jayashree” attitude. Get-in-there-and-say-it-like-it-is. Long may you write.....)
(Local Perspectives)
the only solution may be adoption or strict vigilance by ngo but then ......who knows
am i fortunate for not having to go through such trauma
thank god
my stomach is churning like the coils of a huge python
am i fortunate for not having to go through such trauma
thank god
my stomach is churning like the coils of a huge python
(Global Perspectives)
Hi Shiv! Sure, there are ways of helping children after they have been abused. That’s how it should be.
But I’m sure you’ll agree that it would be better to find solutions BEFORE it happens, because ”after” is too late. The damage has been done........
Have a good day!
But I’m sure you’ll agree that it would be better to find solutions BEFORE it happens, because ”after” is too late. The damage has been done........
Have a good day!
(Local Perspectives)
Hi Michael,
A thought provoking blog - as well as thecomments.You did not tell us what is the punishment for the three categories of such crimes in France.I for one am interested to know this.
I agree with you that the trauma is the same for all three - but the loss is the greater for an incest victim because she looses the trusting and protective family relationship where as others don’t.
Yet I think you are being very naive if you think this can be stopped in the West through passing of laws.What connection in your view do the liberal sexual outlook ;the permissive society;the promotion of women as sex objects;gay rights; ;drinking etc etc have to do with it? Isn’t it paradoxical to on the one hand encourage sexual freedom like and also pass the laws you mention on the other?
Even in Pakistan despite it being a society functioning around orthodox Islamic concepts -as well as being a social structure founded around strong family relationships -a few such acts do occur.When they do they end up as the leading news of the day!
Only last month we had dozens of our channels breaking news about one such case (incest)each in the settled areas of the country as well as our tribal areas i.e. the frontier.In the first case the poor girl was taken away from the parents and placed in a child care home -and the father got three months in the jug.That was all!!!
In the second case-and this may surprise and horrify you- the girl’s father was shot dead by the ’Pakistani Taliban” in front of a public gathering and in the full glare of video cameras.
I was most surprised to discover in myself the thought that the tribesmen dished out the better punishment!
A thought provoking blog - as well as thecomments.You did not tell us what is the punishment for the three categories of such crimes in France.I for one am interested to know this.
I agree with you that the trauma is the same for all three - but the loss is the greater for an incest victim because she looses the trusting and protective family relationship where as others don’t.
Yet I think you are being very naive if you think this can be stopped in the West through passing of laws.What connection in your view do the liberal sexual outlook ;the permissive society;the promotion of women as sex objects;gay rights; ;drinking etc etc have to do with it? Isn’t it paradoxical to on the one hand encourage sexual freedom like and also pass the laws you mention on the other?
Even in Pakistan despite it being a society functioning around orthodox Islamic concepts -as well as being a social structure founded around strong family relationships -a few such acts do occur.When they do they end up as the leading news of the day!
Only last month we had dozens of our channels breaking news about one such case (incest)each in the settled areas of the country as well as our tribal areas i.e. the frontier.In the first case the poor girl was taken away from the parents and placed in a child care home -and the father got three months in the jug.That was all!!!
In the second case-and this may surprise and horrify you- the girl’s father was shot dead by the ’Pakistani Taliban” in front of a public gathering and in the full glare of video cameras.
I was most surprised to discover in myself the thought that the tribesmen dished out the better punishment!
(Global Perspectives)
Ah! A typical Hassan comment!! Full of pertinent questions and interesting information.
Firstly, I don’t have the figures in my head for the degrees of punishment, but I’ll get some examples and put them up for you, and I agree with you personally, although (see Sarah’s comment for example) opinions differ on this issue.
I think that there is no conection between liberal sexuality, the permissive society, gay rights etcera, and pedophilia. Quite simply because there is NOTHING WRONG with those things in my view, and, even if people don’t agree with that, notably ”religious” people, they can’t establish a causal link. I am sexually a liberal and I believe being gay is completely anodine, and I drink (moderately LOL) alcohol. Does this make me more likely to be a pedophile!!?? Ridiculous. It’s like saying that knives are responsible for stabbings. Moreover there are many examples of ”abusive pedophilia” (as opposed to culturally accepted things like 13 year-old marriages) in countries with a strong religious tradition, or countries where sexial liberalism is not accepted.
However, the promotion of women as sexual objects (which has nothing to do with being liberal) IS a factor in my view, quite simply because women (and thus girls) are not considered as moral or emotional or to be respected. They are just ”objects”, as you say, so they are just there to be ”used”.
Finally, I see no contradiction between sexual freedom and laws designed to control abuse. Abuse MEANS ABUSE!! Here in the West it is permitted to be gay, change partners, choose who you marry, sleep with who YOU want to (if you’re not married), but rape, sexual abuse and harassment, pedophilia, stoning women to death for adultery, and sex under 15 (or 16, depending on the country) are not. The principle is that you don’t abuse your freedom. These are Western values Hassam. Some are good and some are not, just like anywhere else in the world, don’t you think?
I hope sincerely hope this answers your questions Hassan. Get back to me if you hae any more....
Seeya!!
Firstly, I don’t have the figures in my head for the degrees of punishment, but I’ll get some examples and put them up for you, and I agree with you personally, although (see Sarah’s comment for example) opinions differ on this issue.
I think that there is no conection between liberal sexuality, the permissive society, gay rights etcera, and pedophilia. Quite simply because there is NOTHING WRONG with those things in my view, and, even if people don’t agree with that, notably ”religious” people, they can’t establish a causal link. I am sexually a liberal and I believe being gay is completely anodine, and I drink (moderately LOL) alcohol. Does this make me more likely to be a pedophile!!?? Ridiculous. It’s like saying that knives are responsible for stabbings. Moreover there are many examples of ”abusive pedophilia” (as opposed to culturally accepted things like 13 year-old marriages) in countries with a strong religious tradition, or countries where sexial liberalism is not accepted.
However, the promotion of women as sexual objects (which has nothing to do with being liberal) IS a factor in my view, quite simply because women (and thus girls) are not considered as moral or emotional or to be respected. They are just ”objects”, as you say, so they are just there to be ”used”.
Finally, I see no contradiction between sexual freedom and laws designed to control abuse. Abuse MEANS ABUSE!! Here in the West it is permitted to be gay, change partners, choose who you marry, sleep with who YOU want to (if you’re not married), but rape, sexual abuse and harassment, pedophilia, stoning women to death for adultery, and sex under 15 (or 16, depending on the country) are not. The principle is that you don’t abuse your freedom. These are Western values Hassam. Some are good and some are not, just like anywhere else in the world, don’t you think?
I hope sincerely hope this answers your questions Hassan. Get back to me if you hae any more....
Seeya!!
(Local Perspectives)
Just try to feel the trauma which an abused child undergoes, she /he feels defiled for life.Incest or pedophile both are equally depisable and the punishment should be severe and public,without showing any consideration of the social positions such scums on earth are occupying
(Global Perspectives)
Perfect. Absolutely perfect. That’s my position exactly Veena, and your reference to social position is particularly relevent, because it shows that you have obviously understood the article very well. The ”in-between” group as I call it, (ie. those in respectable positions), are treated more leniently.
Just one thing though, for your information, (and this is for cultural reasons only, not because I am sympathising with criminals) I, and many here in the West, do not believe in public punishment. This is quite simply because we consider that to be cruel. The criminal is treated like an animal, and the public express their hate for him. It’s not nice to see, and it reminds us of the Inquisition and the religious-style punishments of the middle ages here. An example of public punishment that I find horrifying is hanging people in public or stoning them to death in public. It’s barbaric. If the crime merits execution, ok, execute the person concerned. But not in a context of vengeance and hate.
I personally agree with the practice in some countries which consists of ”if the father finds the rapist, he can kill him. If not, justice kills him, not popular vindict”. Popular vindict is a step towards barbary in my view. But, as I said, that’s just cultural....and subjective.
Many thanks for your comment.
Just one thing though, for your information, (and this is for cultural reasons only, not because I am sympathising with criminals) I, and many here in the West, do not believe in public punishment. This is quite simply because we consider that to be cruel. The criminal is treated like an animal, and the public express their hate for him. It’s not nice to see, and it reminds us of the Inquisition and the religious-style punishments of the middle ages here. An example of public punishment that I find horrifying is hanging people in public or stoning them to death in public. It’s barbaric. If the crime merits execution, ok, execute the person concerned. But not in a context of vengeance and hate.
I personally agree with the practice in some countries which consists of ”if the father finds the rapist, he can kill him. If not, justice kills him, not popular vindict”. Popular vindict is a step towards barbary in my view. But, as I said, that’s just cultural....and subjective.
Many thanks for your comment.
(Local Perspectives)
a side issue recently it was reported that an nri house wife was stripped & filmed for her alleged affair
she claims that her alleged paramour was a carpenter called by her for house painting & she was punished for not submitting to vilage head while i have no desire to probe alleged affair no one can outrage a lady”s modesty not even her spouse any contact without consent is rape period
she claims that her alleged paramour was a carpenter called by her for house painting & she was punished for not submitting to vilage head while i have no desire to probe alleged affair no one can outrage a lady”s modesty not even her spouse any contact without consent is rape period
(Global Perspectives)
Thank you for this information Shiv. I couldn’t agree more!!! Moreover, I personally think that punishing people in public is barbaric and cruel. That kind of behaviour takes us back to the middle-ages. (See comment just above yours).
(Local Perspectives)
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I am glad to be back!
Again!
I had posted another comment promptly, as soon as you had put one, but then the server decided to give me the works!
I am having the worst technical day possible!
My laptop is spooked I guess!
but coming back, Michael you have said all and more on the issue!
you know I recently visited one of the Loreto Convent’s in our city!
This school also runs a shelter for slum children, from in and around the area!
It houses, feeds and educates girls, aided by foreign funds!
girls there are as young as 3 years old!
and most if not all, ARE VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC SEXUAL ABUSE!
all i could do for them was to get some sweets into their lives!
THAT WAS ALL I COULD DO!
I FELT HELPLESS AND ASHAMED!
I AM SO GLAD YOU PUT UP THIS POST!
I REALLY THANK YOU FOR THIS AND MORE...
I saw a documentary on homeless children over there, and the Loreto Convents were filmed too (where, I don’t know).
It’s such a shame that the only ”action” we adults take is;
a) Tell kids to tell the hotline as soon as they’re abused (which means too late); and
b) Give the victims counselling which, although imperative, is once again too late.
WHEN ARE WE GOING TO START LOOKING AT THE ROOTS OF ALL THIS!!
As far as your laptop is concerned, give it an aspirin and put a bandage on it. (I am not pretending to be a qualified doctor mind you....)